1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 9 PUBLIC HEARING Office of Surface Mining 10 Proposed Buffer Zone Rule Charleston, West Virginia 11 March 30, 2004 12 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 Office of Surface Mining: 3 Thomas Morgan Dennis Boyle 4 Kate Smith Nancy Bryant 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 The Office of Surface Mining, Excess 15 Spoil Minimization/Stream Buffer Zone, Proposed Rule 16 Hearing, was held at 6:00 p.m., March 30, 2004, at 17 the Charleston Civic Center, Charleston, West 18 Virginia before Michele G. Hankins, Court Reporter. 19 20 21 22 23 24 3 1 CONTENTS 2 Introduction: Page 3 By Mr. Morgan: 4 4 Speakers: 5 1. Leon Miller 12 2. Bob McLusky 16 6 3. Bill Raney 19 * 4. Regina Hendrix 24 7 * 5. Melvin Tyree 26 * 6. Patty Sebok 29 8 7. Joe Barnett 32 * 8. Nanette Nelson 37 9 * 9. Julia Bonds 41 * 10. Paul Nelson 45 10 * 11. Janice Nease 47 * 12. Bo Webb 53 11 13. Matt Sherman 56 * 14. Janet Fout 61 12 * 15. Arthur Mullins 69 16. Betsy Scott 70 13 * 17. Frank Young 73 18. Willard Kelly 76 14 19. Michael Morrison 77 20. Larry Gibson 80 15 21. James Chojnacki 84 22. Fred Sampson 85 16 23. Bill Price 87 24. Andy Price 91 17 25. Donna Price 93 26. Freda Williams 97 18 27. Mary Ellen O'Farrell 101 28. Larry Maynard 105 19 29. Scott Miller 108 30. Abraham Mwaura 110 20 31. Liz Garland 113 * 32. Jim Waggy 117 21 33. Kate Lambdin 119 34. Norman Googel 121 22 (* Written comments attached.) 23 cont. 24 4 1 2 3 35. Herk McGraw 123 36. David Gould 128 4 * 37. Jack Carrier, III 129 38. Chelena McCoy 131 5 39. Pamela Ruediger 135 * 40. John Corriveau 136 6 * 41. Mary Ann Maul 138 42. Mary Ann Hitt 141 7 43. Jane Andrew 145 44. Winnie Fox 152 8 45. Joe Barnett (Also speaker No. 7.) 153 9 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, the public hearing, was held 3 as follows: 4 MR. MORGAN: Good evening. Welcome to 5 the public hearing by the Department of Interior - 6 Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement, 7 on the proposed changes to the regulations for excess 8 spoil minimization and stream buffer zone. 9 I would like to thank all of you for 10 coming this evening. 11 My name is Tom Morgan. I am with the 12 Office of Surface Mining, Charleston field office, 13 and I will be presiding over the hearing this 14 evening. 15 With me this evening, are three other 16 people from the Charleston office. You already met 17 Dennis Boyle and Kate Smith out at the registration 18 table -- at least I hope that all of you have 19 registered. 20 Nancy Bryant will be helping me this 21 evening, keeping the hearing on schedule. 22 I would now like to read a statement 23 opening the hearing. 24 The purpose of tonight's gathering, is 6 1 to hear your views regarding the agency's proposal to 2 amend the Federal Mining Regulations regarding excess 3 spoil and stream buffer zone requirements. 4 The proposed regulation changes were 5 announced in the Federal Register on January 7, 2004. 6 The summary in the notice states that, 7 we, the Office of Surface Mining, are proposing to 8 amend our regulations to accomplish two basic goals. 9 First, minimizing the adverse and 10 environmental effects regarding the construction of 11 excess spoil fills. 12 Second, clarifying the circumstances in 13 which mining activities, such as the construction of 14 excess spoil fills, may be allowed within the stream 15 buffer zone -- that is, within 100 feet of an 16 intermittent, or perennial stream. 17 By these proposed changes, we intend to 18 clarify our program requirements and reduce the 19 regulatory uncertainty concerning these matters. 20 These changes will also reduce conflicts 21 and improve consistency between regulation and the 22 Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act, commonly 23 referred to as SMCRA, and a regulation under the 24 Clean Water Act. 7 1 More specifically, we intend to minimize 2 the environmental effects from excess spoil fill 3 construction, by requiring that coal operators 4 demonstrate to the satisfaction of the regulatory 5 authority, that to the extent possible, the volume of 6 excess spoil is minimized. 7 Excess spoil fills associated with the 8 mine are designed to be no larger than needed, to 9 accommodate the anticipated volume of excess spoil 10 from that mine. 11 Alternative configurations for excess 12 spoil disposing, including alternative sizes, numbers 13 and locations of fills, are considered. 14 And lastly, the proposed excess spoil 15 disposal plan, minimizes adverse impacts, to the 16 prevailing hydrologic balance, fish, wildlife and 17 environmental values. 18 We also propose to amend the regulations 19 commonly referred to as the stream buffer zone rule, 20 to more closely align with SMCRA and our experience 21 in implementing the rule. 22 The proposed changes to the proposed 23 stream buffer zone rule, will require the applicant 24 to demonstrate that the mining operation has been 8 1 designed, to the extent possible, to minimize impacts 2 on hydrology, fish and wildlife, and related 3 environmental values, and to prevent additional 4 contributions of sediment to streams prior to 5 allowing mining within 100 feet of a perennial, or 6 intermittent stream. 7 We propose to revise rule language, that 8 is evidently confusing, has given rise to divergent 9 and conflicting interpretation, has led to 10 litigation, and has raised concern over restrictions 11 that are not required by SMCRA and might conflict 12 with regulations under the Clean Water Act. 13 Finally, we propose to amend our stream 14 diversion regulation to be consistent with the 15 proposed changes to the stream buffer zone rule. 16 If you have not done so, we strongly 17 recommend that you read the January 7th Federal 18 Register Notice. 19 Several copies of this notice are on the 20 end of the table up here, and during the break, if 21 you haven't seen it, you are welcome to have one of 22 them. 23 If you have Internet access, you can 24 also view or download the proposed rule by visiting 9 1 OSM's homepage, www.osmre.gov, and they are on both 2 signs in the front of the room. 3 In the January 7th notice, we let you 4 know how you could comment on the proposed rule, and 5 initially establish a comment deadline of March the 6 8th. 7 Please note that this is important. At 8 the request of several commentors, on February 26th, 9 we extended the time period for public input for an 10 additional 30 days. 11 The deadline for submitting comments, is 12 now April the 7th. 13 There are several ways that you can make 14 your views known regarding this proposal. You can 15 mail or hand deliver a letter to the Office of 16 Surface Mining, Reclamation and Enforcement, 17 Administrative Record Room, Room 101, 1951 18 Constitution Avenue, Northwest, Washington, D.C., 19 20240. 20 You can e-mail your comments to 21 osm.rules@osmre.job. Again, those addresses are on 22 these signs as well. 23 Finally, you can testify at tonight's 24 hearing, if you wish. This is one of five hearings 10 1 being held today. Other hearings are being conducted 2 in Washington, D.C., Hazard, Kentucky; 3 Carolyn, Tennessee, and Greentree, Pennsylvania. 4 If you have not done so, please sign the 5 attendance register out front during our first break. 6 If you want to speak tonight, please 7 fill out a speaker's registration card, and give it 8 to the person at the registration desk. 9 I will be calling the speakers in the 10 order in which we received your registration. 11 We have a court reporter with us tonight 12 who will prepare a written record, and transcribe the 13 statements made here. 14 Please do not be intimidated by either 15 the recording of your comments, or the formal 16 structure of the hearing. 17 Remember, the purpose of this hearing is 18 to obtain your views on the proposed changes, so that 19 we can consider your comments when we prepare a final 20 action on these regulatory changes. 21 We are here to listen to you. We will 22 not debate the merits of the proposed changes, or 23 answer any questions about the proposal. 24 I ask that you limit your comments to 11 1 the subject matter of the proposals and ask the 2 audience to remain quiet during the testimony. 3 Please be respectful to each other. 4 We have scheduled the hearing for three 5 hours. Everyone who wants to speak, will get an 6 opportunity to speak. 7 So far we have about 30- or 35 8 speakers. We will initially allow about five minutes 9 per speaker. 10 In order to keep us on time, we will use 11 a color-card system. 12 Nancy will be timing each of the 13 presentations, and when the four-minute mark is 14 reached, she will put up a yellow card. When there 15 is 15 seconds left on our allotted time, she will put 16 up the red card, and we would like for you to end 17 your comments at that point, and allow the next 18 speaker to come up. 19 When you come forward as the speaker, 20 please use the microphone that is affixed to the 21 podium. 22 When I begin, I will call the name of 23 the first speaker, and I will also call the speaker 24 of the name that we follow. The speaker that would 12 1 follow, would come up and take their place at the 2 chair over here. That will keep things moving a 3 little better, and we can get through the evening a 4 little faster. 5 At the beginning of your testimony, 6 please state your name and affiliation, if you choose 7 to provide one. 8 If you have a copy of your written 9 comments, we would appreciate it if you would leave a 10 copy with us so that we can provide it to the court 11 reporter. 12 We will be taking about a 10-minute 13 break, around 7:45, between 7:45 and 8 o'clock. 14 Again, thanks to everyone for coming. 15 Now I will open the meeting so that we 16 can hear their comments on the proposed rule. 17 The first speaker will be Leon Miller. 18 The speaker to follow will be 19 Bob McLusky. 20 BY MR. MILLER: 21 I am Leon Miller. I live in Ripley, 22 West Virginia. 23 I am retired from Keyser Aluminum. I am 24 well aware of what environmental rules of our own, 13 1 and what requirements are for the country, and we 2 have debated them for 30-some years in the aluminum 3 business. 4 Do you know what this is? This is pure 5 water. It is probably worth about $8 a gallon, and 6 guess where it came from? Canada. Isn't that sad? 7 I see a lot of it. It is right on the 8 side of the bottle, it is not made in West Virginia. 9 The family home place is Lincoln County 10 and Mud River. My wife's family, my wife and kids 11 swam the river, our kids swam in that river, and our 12 grandkids. And we would like to see it continue that 13 way. 14 The place that we formally are owners 15 of, is within a Arch Coal, Hobet 21 mine, and they 16 have been mining around us for 20 years, and they are 17 slowly moving closer. 18 And there is a branch called 19 Conley Branch, and it is a 10-mile stream. It has 20 been completely filled, and there is overburden 100 21 feet higher than what the closest mountain was that 22 they tore down to fill this stream. 23 Where did the water go? 24 I know when it rains, it runs out 14 1 immediately. And this stream that we are talking 2 about, went into a little place called Big Ugly. I 3 don't know why they called it ugly, when it was 4 beautiful. 5 Anyway, on a summer Sunday afternoon, we 6 would take a drive over this road that was passable 7 most of the year. And we would just go out and enjoy 8 the mountains and the streams. This was within a 9 half mile of the homeplace, and we really didn't know 10 that they were going to fill it, until one day the 11 head security guard -- of course, that is the first 12 thing they do is they put out a security guard. We 13 couldn't go there anymore. 14 The next thing, they built a big dam 15 right in front and then they filled it with water, 16 naturally, and the work went on. You can't get so 17 close. So we found out a year later that there is no 18 more road to Big Ugly, and there is no more Conley 19 Branch. It disappeared. 20 People drive thousands of miles to go to 21 the Big Smokey Mountains to see the mountains and to 22 see the water, and to hike and enjoy it. All you 23 have got to do is drive one hour south on Corridor G, 24 and go off on Lincoln County Road, and you can see 15 1 all of that without having to go any further. 2 It disappeared really quick. Why should 3 we destroy what God put there? 4 Congress recognized a need to protect 5 our most precious resource, which is water. Coal is 6 going to be gone in 40 years. They are going to tell 7 you that you have got 40 years of cheap energy. 8 You have got hundreds of years of this 9 (water) that doesn't cost anything. And do you know 10 what? Your kids are not going to even understand 11 that you do not get water out of a store, that you 12 can drill a well, and get clean water. 13 Most of these streams that I am talking 14 about, if you was hunting in the fall of the year and 15 you got thirsty, you just bent down and got a drink. 16 That is all going to disappear. 17 Do we have the right to destroy our 18 streams, or the quality of them, for corporate 19 greed? I don't think so. 20 Our children and grandchildren deserve 21 to do better and you have the opportunity to do the 22 right thing. I would certainly think that more 23 studies are not going to change the obvious answer to 24 this proposal. 16 1 Thank you. 2 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is 3 Bob McLusky, and the speaker following is Bill Raney. 4 BY MR. McLUSKY: 5 My name is Bob McLusky, and I am an 6 attorney here in Charleston with the law firm of 7 Jackson & Kelly. 8 At one time or other, I have represented 9 various coal interests in the mountaintop mining 10 controversy from its infancy, starting in about 1998. 11 I think at one time or other, I have 12 read anything anyone has wanted to write on the 13 buffer zone rule on all sides. 14 I am speaking here for myself tonight, 15 and I speak generally in favor of the rule, with one 16 quarrel that I will mention towards the end. 17 The proposed buffer zone rule, makes 18 clear what litigation has mudied. The proposed 19 buffer zone rule and the original buffer zone rule, 20 as well, originated as sediment control measures, not 21 as a limitation on valley fills, with a place that 22 for excess spoil, or coal refuse in the streams, 23 under the Clean Water Act. 24 I want to go over very briefly a little 17 1 bit of the history of the Surface Mining Act that is 2 often forgotten in this discussion. In 1977, when 3 Congress passed the Surface Mining Act, one of the 4 primary practices it sought to prohibit was something 5 called downslope placement. 6 That is the uncontrolled pushing of 7 excess spoil over hillsides. 8 One of the primary goals of SMCRA. 9 Congress did that. Congress mandated when they did 10 that, that excess spoil be placed in stable 11 structures. 12 Those structures in central Appalachia, 13 almost always have to be a valley fill. That is what 14 Congress mandated to be done with the material, in 15 order to stabilize it, and to minimize the impact on 16 the environment. 17 It is clear that when Congress passed 18 SMCRA in 1977, it also envisioned that the use of 19 valley fills would not only be mandated, but that the 20 size and number of the valley fills would accelerate. 21 There were studies done in the late 22 70's, toward the Carter administration's Department 23 of the Interior, by an outfit called Mathematical, 24 and it is anonymous. 18 1 The Mathematical studies demonstrated 2 that already by late 1977 -- or basically the late 3 1970's -- mountaintop mining accounted for 15- to 20 4 percent of the coal mined in central Appalachia. It 5 showed what we already know that mountaintop mining 6 reduces the amount of disturbance per acre, per ton 7 of coal mined, and it concluded that although large 8 valley fills already existed, but the size and number 9 would actually accelerate. 10 That is the background. That is the 11 prohibitional downslope placement. 12 It is incredible that anyone could 13 interpret the buffer zone rule to prohibit the very 14 valley filling that was mandated by the Congress in 15 the first place. 16 I believe that the proposed rule 17 correctly identifies that the Buffer Zone Rule, 18 always was intended as a sediment control measure, to 19 protect streams from upland disturbance. 20 The 100-foot portion of the rule is 21 derived from the Department of Highways standards 22 published in studies -- like Grimm and Hill, there 23 are studies in OSM's original rulemaking. 24 OSM correctly recognizes in the proposed 19 1 rule, that the primary regulators, or valley fills, 2 that the Corps of Engineers under Section 404 of the 3 Clean Water Act, correctly recognizes that no rule in 4 the SMCRA can amend, or change, the 404 permitting 5 process the Corps of Engineers believes in. 6 My one stupe of the rule -- the rule, as 7 read by Mr. Morgan -- says that one must minimize 8 some of these activities to the extent possible. I 9 believe the word should be "practicable". 10 That is a word that is in the Clean 11 Water Act. It has also been a word that seems to be 12 spoiled amortization policies, that the State of West 13 Virginia uses, that were actually written by the 14 environmental community as part of the mountaintop 15 mining dispute. 16 With that said, I support the 17 rulemaking, with that one deletion, as proposed by 18 OSM. 19 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is 20 Bill Raney. 21 The speaker to follow is Regina Hendrix. 22 BY MR. RANEY: 23 Thank you, Mr. Morgan. I am Bill Raney 24 with the West Virginia Coal Association. I am proud 20 1 to represent the West Virginia coal industry, which 2 is the second leading producer of coal, from a volume 3 standpoint, in this nation. And the leading producer 4 from an energy standpoint. Clearly, the home of the 5 best coal miners in the world. 6 These coal miners are proud of what they 7 do every day. They are proud of what they have done, 8 producing coal here in West Virginia. 9 Using valley fills, mountaintop mining, 10 underground mining, and conventional contour methods, 11 they are proud of all they have done for 30 years, 12 and before. They have successfully dealt with the 13 buffer zone since 1977, Mr. McLusky said. 14 Over those years, they have changed the 15 way that they comply. It is much more complicated 16 than it was in 1977, or 1983, when they were 17 published. But the key words are, these miners are 18 compliant. 19 Two federal court cases have 20 acknowledged West Virginia and Kentucky's compliance. 21 Practices in science document this compliance every 22 day. 23 Remember, this is compliance with a 24 regulation. The buffer zone is not even in the law. 21 1 Valley fills are in the law, stream protections are 2 in the law, and they will stay in the law. 3 I remember when the buffer zone was 4 first brought up in 1977 by the first director of OSM 5 Walter Hine, and his assistant, Paul Reeves. 6 It was intended, as Mr. McLusky said, to 7 prevent offsite disturbances in and around stream 8 beds. It was never intended to prevent or affect 9 valley fill construction, mentioned in the Surface 10 Mining Act. 11 For 27 years it has done that. It has 12 protected the streams from off-site disturbances; it 13 has allowed valley fills to continue to be 14 professionally constructed. 15 And it is allowed -- most importantly, 16 it has allowed our people to continue to work. 17 Even though in the last six years, 18 lawyers' translations have attempted to get the 19 courts to declare that this regulation is stronger 20 than law, an attempt to take our people's jobs away. 21 We are amazed to hear the accusations 22 are weakening, that is done by this regulation. 23 These rules will require additional 24 analyzes, more testing, an increased proof, of 22 1 minimizing fills, not only size, but location, and 2 volume. 3 They used 12 pages of the Federal 4 Register, and I suspect that if you are weakening 5 something you certainly don't need 12 pages of the 6 Federal Register. 7 They require the best technology 8 currently available. And I can tell you, we have 9 been doing many of these new tests, these new 10 analyzes for the past several years here in West 11 Virginia. 12 If the naysayers want to return to the 13 1977, '79, '83 rule that is currently on the books, 14 then we say, let's go. We are ready to return to 15 that. Because this new way that we have been doing 16 for a couple of years here in West Virginia, is much 17 more expensive, much more difficult, much more time 18 consuming. 19 But if it gets rid of that incisive 20 parade of lawsuits, if it brings developing and 21 predictability to permitting, and to the oversight of 22 what we are doing here in West Virginia. And if it 23 keeps our people working, we need to continue. 24 Our people, all 16,000 who directly dig 23 1 coal, and the more than 100,000 West Virginians who 2 depend on a mine working every day somewhere in 3 West Virginia, want to continue to live in 4 West Virginia and raise their families here. 5 They live in the coal fields, they hunt 6 in the same mountains where they are mining the coal, 7 and they fish in the streams that are receiving the 8 discharges from these operations. 9 They raise their families on wages from 10 an honest and long day's work. And they are proud 11 West Virginians, bringing this country the most 12 stable and secure fuel known to man. 13 Today, they are mining Americans best 14 friend, and they are doing it for our homeland 15 security, and they are doing it better than anyone 16 else. 17 They know how to mine coal, and as an 18 environmentally-sound manner, as anybody, anyplace in 19 this world. And they do it every day. 20 These coal miners are looking forward, 21 and they want a future and they want it here in West 22 Virginia. 23 I am very, very proud to represent them. 24 They are real. Their concerns are real, and they 24 1 know what they are doing. 2 We support the rule, we have experienced 3 the rule, we think it is much more difficult than the 4 currently published rule. 5 We thank you, Mr. Chairman. 6 MR. MORGAN: Regina Hendrix. 7 The speaker following will be Melvin 8 Tyree. 9 BY MS. HENDRIX: My name is Regina 10 Hendrix, and I live near the Kanawha River. 11 I am adamantly opposed to the Bush 12 Administration proposed spring buffer rule changes. 13 Since 1977, federal law has prohibited 14 the dumping of mine waste within 100 feet of streams. 15 This law has been routinely violated 16 during mountaintop-removal operations, and more than 17 1,000 miles of West Virginia streams have been buried 18 with waste materials from mountaintop-removal sites. 19 I grew up in the Kanawha Valley in the 20 40's and 50's, in a time when the water in this area 21 was polluted with acid mine drainage, and toxic waste 22 from the chemical industry. There was no place to 23 swim or go boating. The rivers and streams were 24 flowing sewers. 25 1 To digress for a minute, Mr. Raney says 2 that they fish in the steams, but he fails to tell 3 you that they do not eat the fish. You can't eat the 4 fish out of the Kanawha River. 5 I do not want my grandchildren to have 6 to pay for cleanup of streams polluted with mine 7 waste. This is greed for short-term profit, and most 8 of the profit goes out of the state anyway. 9 We live in an area that has been 10 exploited and abused by out-of-state landowners for 11 two centuries. We live in a state with the most 12 progressive taxes in the United States, the food tax, 13 the income tax, which collects money from people 14 making as little as $10,000 a year. 15 Are we going to ask these people for 16 more dollars, to clean up more toxic waste? Isn't it 17 enough that they already pay to clean up after the 18 mine drainage and sludge spills, not to mention 19 repairing the roads and building reinforced bridges 20 for coal trucks. 21 My ancestors have lived in this valley 22 for 200 years. I don't know what their motives were 23 for letting our waters become so filthy and toxic 24 over the years, maybe they didn't know any better. 26 1 Anyway, they let me down. They were not 2 good stewards of our earth. 3 I intend to fight this proposed change, 4 which will further degrade our water quality. We 5 must clean up our rivers and streams for future 6 generations. And dumping more mine waste into them, 7 is not the way to do it. 8 Do not tell me that this is a jobs issue 9 either. Mining in West Virginia dropped 29 percent 10 between 1987, and 1997, while production of coal went 11 up 32 percent, as mountaintop removal boomed. 12 Mountaintop removal is a crime against 13 the people and the earth, and it is economic 14 insanity. 15 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Melvin 16 Tyree. 17 The speaker following is Patty Sebok. 18 BY MR. TYREE: 19 Hi. I am Melv Tyree and I live in 20 Putnum County, West Virginia. And I disagree with 21 doing away with the 100-foot buffer zone. 22 Conducting mining activities along 23 perennial and ephemeral streams without proper buffer 24 zones would: One, decrease vegetation cover and tree 27 1 canopy adjacent to the affected streams, which would 2 increase water temperatures. Increased water 3 temperatures, would decrease population sizes and 4 viability of vital ethnic organisms in the streams, 5 which would reduce the energy budget for organisms 6 downstream. 7 Two, reduce vegetation cover during 8 mining activities within the 100-foot buffer zone, 9 would increase soil temperature and cause an increase 10 in moisture evaporation. This will cause a dramatic 11 decrease in population sizes of soil invertebrates 12 such as insects which serve as the main food supply 13 for salamanders, which are a major keystone species 14 for healthy streams and woodland ecology. 15 Three, reduction of vegetation cover 16 from mining activities within a 100-foot buffer 17 distance from primary streams will decrease leaf 18 litter and other filth that enter these waterways. 19 This will also decrease the food supply 20 for benthic organisms, such as insect larvae, which 21 serve as the base of the food chain downstream. 22 Four, preserving a healthy and hardy 23 buffer zone surrounding ephemeral and perennial 24 streams is the best natural protection to reduce 28 1 sediment runoff, flash flooding, and pollutant 2 release. 3 Increased siltation from mining runoff, 4 reduces oxygen availability and photosynthesis rates. 5 This, in turn, suffocates fish and other 6 oxygen-dependant stream life. 7 The best available technology or 8 engineering practices used to mitigate or replace 9 buffer zones would be very hard pressed to adequately 10 compensate for the loss of stream protection provided 11 by natural buffer zones, in my opinion. 12 This practice of valley fills and 13 eliminating buffer zones, would be devastating. 14 Probably as devastating as the acid mine drainage, 15 which killed hundreds of miles of streams in past 16 generations. 17 During the nine years that I was a 18 regulator for the West Virginia DEP Solid Waste 19 Management Section, landfill operators had no problem 20 maintaining a 300-foot buffer zone to remove landfill 21 construction sites. And this is required under the 22 Code State Regulations 33-1. 23 It seems to me that coal mine operators 24 could conduct business while maintaining the same 29 1 stream buffer zones. 2 In my opinion, changing the language for 3 stream buffer zones in the surface mining rule would 4 be a bad precedent to set that may encourage other 5 regulated industries to follow. 6 One of my professors at Marshall once 7 said that, "If you write the law with a shaky hand, 8 the rules will be bent like a rubberband." 9 Thank you. 10 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Patty 11 Sebok. 12 The speaker to follow is Joe Barnett. 13 BY MS. SEBOK: 14 Hello. My name is Patty Sebok. 15 I am a resident of Boone County. My 16 husband is an underground miner. 17 Yes, Mr. Raney is right about one thing 18 tonight, and only one: Miners are proud. And the 19 only jobs being provided that amount to anything are 20 the underground mines, because mountaintop removal 21 don't provide that many jobs. 22 I am opposed to any attempt to weaken or 23 eliminate the stream buffer zone rule that has 24 protected the streams from mining activities for 20 30 1 years. 2 The proposed changes to this rule would 3 allow mining companies to further destroy and degrade 4 waters in Appalachian region with coal waste, but 5 what everyone should be aware of is, the stream 6 buffer zone rule protects waters of the entire United 7 States from all situations. 8 If this rule is changed, then anything 9 can be dumped into any stream, or even the ocean. So 10 this is not just an Appalachian problem. 11 I live beside Laurel Creek, which is a 12 trout stream. And people in the area, actually 13 cleaned up that stream so that they could stock the 14 trout, and it is still stocked. 15 My son likes to trout fish, as well as 16 many other fishermen. If this rule is changed, then 17 no one will be able to fish, and we will lose our 18 little stream. How much more will we be asked to 19 give? 20 I am tired of being called a 21 special-interest group every time I oppose something 22 our government pushes on us for the coal industry. 23 We are not against coal mining and I am really 24 getting tired of being told what I am against. 31 1 I think I know what I am against. I 2 think Gale Norton summed it up best when she said, 3 "All Americans have benefited from Appalachian coal 4 for 200 years, but residents living near the coal 5 fields are the ones who have had to live with the 6 consequences and the risks to their health and their 7 safety." 8 "Even after 25 years of extraordinary 9 national effort, we still have almost $3 billion" -- 10 that is "billion" with a "B" -- "worth of 11 high-priority hazards to health and safety waiting to 12 be cleaned up." 13 Now these are Gale Norton's words. 14 A billion is kind of a difficult number 15 to comprehend, so I put this little figure thing in 16 prospective here. 17 A billion seconds ago, it was 1959. 18 A billion minutes ago, Jesus was alive. 19 A billion hours ago, our ancestors were 20 living in the Stone Age. 21 A billion dollars ago, was only 8 hours 22 and 20 minutes at the rate Washington spends it. 23 As I see it, coal field residents are 24 being sacrificed everyday. 32 1 We have lived with underground coal 2 mining in our communities for over 200 years. 3 Underground mining did not cause the problems of 4 flooding and polluted streams that we are now seeing 5 widespread in the coal fields of West Virginia. 6 Now that we have lost hundreds of 7 thousands of acres of land and thousands of miles of 8 streams, we see widespread flooding and degraded 9 streams from mountaintop removal. So why should we 10 have to put up with this now? So a greedy CEO, or an 11 out-of-state landowner could make another billion? I 12 don't think so. 13 Just because you put your boots in the 14 oven, don't make them biscuits, like Mr. Raney and 15 Mr. McLusky says. 16 MR. MORGAN: Before the next speaker, I 17 am going to have to ask that you do hold the 18 applauds. We are not here to applaud the speakers, 19 we are here to hear comments from the public, and on 20 the proposals before us tonight. 21 The next speaker is Joe Barnett. 22 The speaker following is Nanette Nelson. 23 BY MR. BARNETT: 24 I don't pretend to be much of a 33 1 speaker. I am a coal miner myself, I have been for 2 20 years, an underground coal miner. But I am also a 3 landowner and taxpayer. 4 I have lived up in the head of the 5 hollow for the last 20-some years, trying to raise my 6 kids, in a place that they didn't have to deal with 7 drugs and theft, and all kinds of troubles that comes 8 with city life. 9 I wanted them to be raised, the way I 10 was raised. To have some idea of what the mountains 11 are about and what our heritage is about. 12 I also have Native American in me. 13 I want to tell you that we do not believe taking 14 anything away from the land, more than we needed, and 15 we try to put back as best we can. 16 I was always taught that you worked 17 every day, you paid your taxes, you supported your 18 country, and most important of all, believed in God 19 that you were on the right side of things. 20 But it has turned out to the point now 21 that what people call prosperity is taking away 22 everything that we ever had. Because there is 23 nothing more beautiful than to be out in the evening 24 hours and watch a deer stand beside of a stream and 34 1 drink, or watch the fish in the stream playing, but 2 we don't see that anymore. What we see now is 3 blackish, greasy, nasty water coming out of the 4 hollows. 5 I live in the direct line below a valley 6 fill known as the Skeeter Creek operation. The 7 blasting has torn my house all to pieces. We have 8 been flooded, we have lost our well. 9 Loggers are in there right now with a 10 helicopter carrying logs out every two minutes, a lot 11 like clock work. They are standing in line to haul 12 logs out of that hollow. 13 So I don't need Mr. Raney, or a lawyer 14 to tell me how great the coal industry is. I know 15 underground, every law that has ever been written was 16 signed with some man's blood. I know, because I have 17 been there. 18 They do these things, and then when 19 someone gets hurt or killed, they run in there and 20 they sign a new law. Bologna. 21 They don't know that this mountaintop 22 removal is environmental rape. It is not regulated. 23 I have talked to the DEP people in Beckley, I have 24 talked to the logging people in Beckley, I might as 35 1 well have gone out and spit in the wind for all the 2 good it done me. 3 I have stood for our schools that have 4 been closed in our community, I have done battles for 5 everything that I believed in, and I have yet to find 6 anyone that seems to give a hoot about what happens 7 to us. 8 My dad is a World War II veteran. He is 9 deceased now. I am a Vietnam veteran, and as I 10 speak, I have a son serving in Iraq. We believe in 11 our country, we defend our country. But it is about 12 time that I think that us taxpayers that make all 13 these high-paid people's jobs possible, that they 14 start listening to us and quit paying so much 15 attention to the special interests and these big coal 16 companies -- and Bill Raney is under the impression 17 that the coal companies love him, when he quits being 18 their servant, they will dump him just as quick as 19 they would me. 20 Don't nobody be deceived that the coal 21 company loves you, because they have got one thing on 22 their mind, that is money. They don't care who they 23 step on to get it. And when they leave, the 24 devastation and the carnage, and the rape that they 36 1 leave behind will take hundreds of years, maybe 2 thousands of years, to get it back to where it was. 3 You folks, sitting here tonight holding 4 this hearing, are obligated by your jobs and by law 5 to see that this stuff stops. Not to loosen the 6 regulations and give them even more leeway, but to 7 enforce the laws that are on the books right now. 8 I know our noble president is in full 9 favor of this, but he is the same guy who wants to 10 cut down the National Forest, too. 11 We need to open our eyes, and look down 12 the road to our children's future, and we need to say 13 that if we don't stand up -- and Bill Raney, this 14 goes for you, too, I hope you have children -- some 15 of us have got to stand up and say, Enough is 16 enough. 17 It is time to do what is right, and it 18 is time to honor what God has given us. As I 19 mentioned, our Native Americans, it is time that they 20 can be proud of us again, because they have been 21 kicked around all of their life, and it don't look 22 like it is going to change. 23 That is all I have to say. 24 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Nanette 37 1 Nelson, and the speaker to follow is Julia Bonds. 2 BY MS. NELSON: 3 My name is Nanette Nelson. I live on 4 Big Coal River, in Boone County. 5 I want you to know that I am not against 6 coal mining. There is a long history of coal mining 7 in my family. 8 My grandfather was a blacksmith, and 9 shod ponies for the mines. My dad worked for Armco 10 Steel for many years. He also worked for a small 11 company called Cameo. He worked in the 30's, 40's 12 and 50's. 13 My husband also worked in the mines for 14 many, many years. 15 So you can see, I know a little bit what 16 it is like to be so connected with the mining 17 industry. 18 There has been a lot of change in the 19 industry in all of those years. From the change in 20 the equipment in the mines, to the method of mining 21 itself. 22 However, one thing has not changed, that 23 is the attitude of the mining companies. 24 They have always thought of themselves 38 1 as all-powerful. They have changed some of their 2 tactics, though. 3 They have always said that if they had 4 to follow laws and rules, that they would have to go 5 out of business. The difference now is that they use 6 their workers to fight their battles for them. That 7 is a new tactic. 8 They also have a front seat in the 9 government, state and federal. Since they have this 10 seat, they are now in position to have any kind of 11 regulation they do not like changed. This is a 12 dangerous thing. 13 We all have laws that we have to live 14 by. Society cannot exist without them. The 15 environmental laws were written to protect mankind. 16 I know the industry laughs, and makes 17 light of these laws saying that we want to protect 18 bats and lizards, and whatever else they can come up 19 with to make these rules sound ridiculous, but the 20 truth is this: If the environment cannot support 21 these creatures, the environment is becoming 22 dangerous for man. 23 The scientific data proves this. That 24 the administration does not like this data. They 39 1 have gotten rid of scientists that have given the 2 warning signals, and replace them with scientists 3 that will tickle their ears and they won't pose a 4 threat to the industrial backers of this 5 administration. 6 Folks, we need to wake up and look 7 around us. The environment in this state, and all of 8 Appalachia is threatened. 9 We have suffered from terrible floods 10 and disasters and it is getting worse. 11 I know that we have to have coal; we 12 cannot do without it. But we cannot live without 13 clean water and clean air, and we can't live with the 14 constant threat of the communities being flooded, the 15 loss of personal property, and yes, the loss of life 16 itself. 17 We are going to have to look towards the 18 future. What is the future even going to be like for 19 our children and our grandchildren? From what I have 20 seen, even with the laws that we have, from the 21 destruction of our streams, and to the destruction of 22 our forests, and the floods in our small communities, 23 I cannot imagine what the future will be like for the 24 generations to come. 40 1 We have to protect the resources that we 2 have. 3 I am against changing the stream buffer 4 zone ruling. 5 Please keep the buffer zone intact. 6 Protect our children and our communities. 7 I love history. I have studied a lot of 8 the great civilizations of the empires of the past. 9 One of the greatest was the Roman Empire, which 10 conquered most of the known world at the time. 11 They thought that they were invincible, 12 but they crumbled and fell. 13 There were several reasons for this: 14 Their military decisions, their greed, their 15 debauchery, and lead. 16 You know, I am not talking about 17 bullets. Their eating utensils and cooking pots 18 contained lead. That was one of the things that 19 weakened their people mentally and physically. 20 They unknowingly poisoned themselves. 21 We have an advantage over them. We have 22 science to let us know what is harmful and what is 23 not. 24 The United States is only 41 1 two-and-a-quarter-centuries year old. I can already 2 see some of the things that caused the downfall of 3 the Romans going on here now. The hunger, the greed 4 and the power, and the poisoning of our people. 5 I have always heard that to know the 6 future, is to look to the past. Let's look to the 7 past, and learn from it and not repeat it. 8 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker 9 Julia Bonds. 10 The speaker to follow is Paul Nelson. 11 BY MS. BONDS: 12 Hello. My name is Julia Bonds and 13 I live on Coal River. I have lived there forever. 14 I am opposed to this rule change, or 15 clarification of the 100-foot buffer zone rule. This 16 clarification is simply an evil scheme to allow 17 greedy mining companies to destroy our streams, 18 water, and our mountains, God's creation. 19 The sole purpose of this change is to 20 allow the evil of mountaintop-removal mining to 21 continue. 22 This administration and the regulatory 23 agencies go too far this time. Both this 24 administration, and these agencies, are nothing more 42 1 than prostitutes for the extractive industries. 2 These include the West Virginia state agencies, as 3 well as the federal agencies. 4 This rule change also violates the 5 executive order for environmental adjustments to 6 low-income rule and ethnic groups signed by 7 President Clinton. 8 Most of America's drinking water comes 9 from streams and lakes. Our nations' rivers, start 10 from headwater mountain streams. Headwater streams 11 play an important role in the health of rivers and 12 larger streams, and they play a large role in the 13 health of humans. 14 Clean headwater streams reduces the cost 15 to clean and purify drinking water. 16 West Virginia is the birthplace of 17 rivers. Clean water is West Virginia's economic 18 future, and the future of our children. Clean water 19 is necessary for life. 20 Somehow, I don't think God appreciates 21 his children being baptized in streams polluted with 22 mine waste, and it is also hard to be baptized in a 23 stream that doesn't exist anymore. 24 When tons of mine waste is dumped into 43 1 the headwaters of streams, and then it rains, that 2 sediment is washed downstream to fill that stream bed 3 up. And the stream bed below that stream bed. And 4 when the rivers overflow their beds and we have 5 flooding, and guess what? The taxpayers get to foot 6 the bill for the coal industry. 7 Don't you have any common sense at all? 8 Some people stereotype us as hillbillies, you can 9 call us that if you want to, but we are smart enough 10 to know that pollution runs downstream. 11 I don't know whether this administration 12 is stupid or whether they think we are stupid. 13 This change will not only destroy 14 Appalachian streams, this change will destroy all of 15 America's streams. No, this agency and this 16 administration would rather sell out their children's 17 futures with their immortal souls for profit and 18 power, for 30 pieces of silver. 19 Cash them rivers in for gold. 20 They should enforce the law. No mining 21 within 100 feet of a stream. That is the intent of 22 Congress. No mining around a stream. It is plain. 23 Government records show that coal 24 companies have been murdering our mountains, our 44 1 streams and our people for over 50 years, and the 2 agencies have done very little to even slow it down. 3 Other administrations merely turned 4 their heads to murder. 5 This administration is trying to change 6 the laws and speed up this slaughter of the people 7 that love the land and love our children's future. 8 This is a war in Appalachia. Our people are 9 suffering. And because you won't enforce the law, 10 the coal industry pawns are harassing people. 11 Many of you know a single mother of two, 12 has been harassed recently for speaking out against 13 mountaintop removal. They harassed her 13-year-old 14 son and they vandalized her truck, and they 15 threatened to do her bodily harm. 16 First, she is blasted. Then she is 17 flooded three times in one year, and her children are 18 afraid to go to sleep when it rains. She is in 19 Washington, D.C., speaking at a hearing today. She 20 will be back in West Virginia tomorrow. And she has 21 filed a complaint with the police. 22 Should some Friends of Coal be ashamed 23 of themselves? What kind of people does this? 24 Cowards. That is who does it. 45 1 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Paul 2 Nelson. 3 The speaker to follow is Janice Nease. 4 BY MR. NELSON: 5 Hello. My name is Paul Nelson. I am 6 also a coal miner. I live on Big Coal River, Boone 7 County. 8 I want to speak to you about the buffer 9 zone ruling. I am against you changing the buffer 10 zone ruling. 11 Keep the buffer zone as it is. 12 I have maps here showing where the coal 13 is in West Virginia. There is hardly anywhere in the 14 state that is not in danger of being affected by MTR. 15 I also have maps of toxic releases and 16 toxic waste sites. 17 This is not acceptable. 18 There may be a time when we have to 19 depend on these streams for our water supply. If our 20 water systems should come under terrorist attack, we 21 may need these streams for our survival. 22 There is no need to destroy these 23 streams. 24 We can deep mine the coal, we could deep 46 1 mine, keep streams intact, put more men to work. You 2 said 16,000 jobs? We are talking 100,000 jobs in 3 deep mines. 4 We need the buffer zone. Not to 5 mention, the employment of many more people, that you 6 are going to affect the most. 7 There is nothing more important than our 8 water supply and our clean air. 9 Keep the buffer zone the way that it is. 10 (Map shown.) 11 Here is the map. You can see this is 12 the amount of coal that you could dig. 13 (Map shown.) 14 This is toxic release. 15 (Map shown.) 16 This is hazardous-waste site. 17 If you go back to the first map, all of 18 this will be destroyed with what they are going to do 19 with MTR. 20 What is going to happen to all of this 21 when it has been put in the ground? 22 I wonder where your water came from a 23 minute ago? 24 Thank you. 47 1 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is 2 Janice Nease. 3 The speaker to follow is -- I can't make 4 out the first name, but the last name is "Webb". 5 BY MS. NEASE: 6 My name is Janice Nease. I am very proud 7 to say that I am Executive Director of Coal River 8 Mountain Watch. 9 I am also glad that Mr. Raney came back 10 into the room. I believe that I see Mr. McLusky back 11 there. I am sure they would be terribly -- 12 MR. MORGAN: Ma'am, I would like to 13 interrupt you one moment. 14 We are not here to talk about Mr. Raney 15 tonight. 16 MS. NEASE: Well, I was just going to 17 rebut something. 18 MR. MORGAN: I would appreciate it if 19 people would not direct their comments to him. 20 AUDIENCE MEMBER: She has five minutes. 21 BY MS. NEASE: 22 Okay. I won't direct it to him, I will 23 direct them to you. 24 MR. MORGAN: Thank you. 48 1 BY MR. NEASE: 2 I would just like to remind everyone 3 that if they really want to know what SMCRA was 4 intended to be, they should talk to Ken Hechler. He 5 helped write it. I have talked with him many times. 6 I know exactly what it was supposed to be, and it did 7 not meet some of the information that you have said 8 here tonight. 9 I would also like to remind you that in 10 1977, we didn't even have gigantic coal companies 11 jumping the rules, complexing it like we have now. 12 We had small mining complexes, we had 13 smaller valley fills. Most people didn't even know 14 mountaintop removal existed at that time. 15 It is only when they got out of control, 16 when they went totally berserk, that something had to 17 be done. 18 You cannot go back and compare this to 19 1977, and say that nothing has changed. Things have 20 changed drastically, and they will continue to change 21 drastically if we allow them. 22 It is inconceivable to me that we are 23 even having this hearing here tonight. 24 Any reasonable person -- any reasonable 49 1 person -- would understand that any effort to reduce, 2 or eliminate the stream buffer zone is shear madness. 3 It is the last stronghold of the Clean 4 Water Act. 5 This Bush Administration has already 6 significantly weakened SMCRA, which was written to 7 protect the streams and waters of our nation from 8 irresponsible mining of coal. 9 Mountaintop removal is the epitome of 10 irresponsible mining. 11 Lapses in enforcement of environmental 12 laws have already allowed the permanent destruction 13 of 1,200 miles of streams by the dumping of mine 14 waste in the streams. 15 MR. MORGAN: I think you need to keep 16 the microphone a little further away from your face. 17 BY MS. NEASE: 18 This type of damage is irreversible. 19 How many streams must we lose before the 20 state and the nation say enough? 21 President Bush and the regulatory 22 agencies say that they are not doing away with the 23 stream buffer zone, they are merely clarifying the 24 rule. 50 1 This rule does not need clarification. 2 What could be more simple and clear than 3 these words: Surface mining, or mining activities 4 within 100 feet of a perennial or intermittent 5 stream, are prohibited. 6 Then it goes on to say, Unless the 7 government finds that the mining won't adversely 8 affect the water quality or quantity. We could 9 clarify that very simply by striking out that last 10 statement. 11 If nothing is to be mined within 100 12 feet of a stream, that's it. You don't need to say 13 anything else. Stop the loophole. That is what is 14 wrong now. 15 Everytime that we have a law, it 16 guarantees the rights of the people to be undermined 17 by loopholes. Get rid of that. You don't need to do 18 anything else. You have got the perfect stream 19 buffer zone. No confusion anywhere. 20 The current rule not only protects the 21 streams from pollution -- 22 Excuse me. What I wanted to say is that 23 there is some confusion now, because what is clear 24 about the stream buffer zone law, is that the current 51 1 administration of regulatory agencies, always declare 2 that mining never adversely affects streams, or 3 waters. In fact, it never adversely affects anything 4 at all, if you believe what they say. 5 I will remind you again what everyone 6 has said so clearly: We cannot live without clean 7 water. 8 You have to remember what Judy said, 9 that headwaters flow into streams, which flow into 10 rivers, which flow into the ocean. It is a 11 cumulative affect. 12 Most of the water, I happen to know, 13 comes from Canada. We used to have pristine streams 14 in West Virginia. But now, you ought to go out and 15 take a good look at what is happening, and you will 16 never call it beautiful again. 17 When you cover 1,200 miles of streams, 18 it is irreparable, it can never, ever be changed. 19 Remember that. 20 Not only must the stream buffer zone 21 remain intact, current laws must be rigorously 22 enforced and strengthened. For too long, the people 23 and communities in the southern coal fields have 24 lived without the basic rights of every other 52 1 American. 2 For too long, they have watched the 3 decapitation of their mountains, and the pollution of 4 their streams. Streams that supply their drinking 5 water. 6 For too long, they have been subjected 7 to dust and air pollution. For too long they have 8 suffered devastating floods which destroyed their 9 homes and communities. For too long, they have 10 watched their culture and their heritage 11 disappearing. 12 Now they have suffered long enough. 13 They have suffered because laws that should have been 14 enforced were not, and because mining rules and 15 regulations have been changed to protect the mining 16 industry. 17 Let me make a clarification of my own: 18 These days are over. Beware. My people were only 19 sleeping. Now they have awakened. Now they are 20 ready to take back what is theirs and what has always 21 been there. 22 They refuse to allow politicians, 23 regulatory agencies and greedy corporations to drive 24 them from the mountains and ancestral lands they 53 1 love. 2 They are here tonight to demand 3 environmental, economic and social justice. They are 4 here to tell you to keep your hands off the stream 5 buffer zone law. Your mission is to enforce the laws 6 that protect the environment and people from 7 irresponsible mining, not to appease the coal 8 industry. 9 Thank you. 10 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is 11 Mr. Webb. 12 Speaker to follow is Matt Sherman. 13 Will you give us your first name? 14 MR. WEBB: Bo. 15 BY MR. WEBB: 16 Hi. My name is Bo Webb. I live on the 17 Coal River. My family has lived there for eight 18 generations, the forest is my background. 19 I am proud and privileged to be involved 20 with the good people of Coal River Mountain Watch. 21 This proposal that is being put forth by 22 the current administration, to change the stream 23 buffer zone rule, is an ongoing attempt to force 24 people off their land, to depopulate the coal fields 54 1 of southern West Virginia. 2 It will have a negative impact on those 3 of us who are living in the coal fields. It is far 4 reaching, and it will affect the lives of Americans 5 throughout the country. 6 In Arizona, the Black Mesa Water Fall, 7 which is consisting of members of the Hopi, Dine', 8 and the Apache tribes, have issued an appeal and a 9 warning to halt plans to desecrate the sacred San 10 Francisco peaks. The coalition urged the city to 11 keep the mountain peaks sacred and undefiled, for its 12 water nourishes the medicine herbs and trees, 13 sustains the eagles and ensures the cycle of life. 14 Calvin Long, a 28-year-old Dine' said 15 that preserving the peaks is about more than water 16 and land of Black Mesa. It is about preserving the 17 identity of the people themselves. 18 "I value who I am as a human being. 19 I value nature. I want my descendants, and my nieces 20 and nephews, to be able to have that identity. To be 21 able to be Dine' and to be able to understand what 22 their forefathers have protected, what has been 23 passed down from the Holy people." 24 "I am standing up against cultural 55 1 genocide and oppression, that is what I see 2 happening." 3 What do the San Francisco Peaks, and the 4 beautiful Appalachian Mountains have to do with one 5 another? Well, the first answer would be that both 6 are sacred gifts from our Creator. Although the 7 threats to each may differ in some ways, the end 8 result is much the same. 9 The devastation that is caused by 10 mountaintop removal, protects the water and the land 11 of Appalachia. 12 It threatens the identity of the 13 Appalachian people, as well. The Appalachian 14 mountains support a way of life that for many 15 generations have included hunting, gathering, 16 gardening, as well as underground coal mining and 17 timbering. 18 Mountaintop removal denies our people 19 the right to continue to deny these practices that 20 have been our way of life. It denies future 21 generations the ability to learn the mountain way. 22 To appreciate living from the earth and in harmony 23 with nature. Therefore, creating cultural genocide 24 and oppression of the Appalachian people. 56 1 Genocide is defined as the denial of the 2 right of existence to entire human groups. Such 3 denial of the right of existence shocks the 4 conscience of mankind, results in great losses to 5 humanity in the form of cultural and other 6 contributions represented by these groups, and is 7 contrary to moral law. 8 The act of decapitating the Appalachian 9 Mountains and burying the veins of our Mother Earth 10 threatens the existence and future of the 11 Appalachians. 12 As a native West Virginian, I am opposed 13 to this criminal change of the stream buffer zone 14 rule. It will enable surface mining operations to 15 not only continue, but accelerate at a greater pace. 16 Thank you. 17 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Matt 18 Sherman. The speaker to follow is Janet Fout. 19 BY MR. SHERMAN: 20 Hello. My name is Matt Sherman, or Aja 21 Ma Gun (phonetic) -- "Walks on Land." I am half 22 Dakota Warrior, and the only reason to be here is to 23 protect our sacred Mother Earth. 24 I have come here by invitation. 57 1 My people come from the Kanawha Valley, 2 in the middle of the 1850's when my blackfoot 3 step-grandmother sought refuge in the mountains of 4 West Virginia. I was told to come here and protect 5 the people. 6 I toured the Kayford Mountain, and you 7 need to get a hold of George Bush and tell him that 8 we finally found the weapons of mass destruction. 9 They are being held by Massey Coal. 10 I didn't know if I was going to speak 11 here tonight, and I do enjoy speaking, so I had a 12 brief conversation before I even met with my brothers 13 and sisters with Mr. Raney and Mr. McLusky. 14 I didn't even know who they were when I 15 came up here, and I had a nice conversation with 16 them. At the end of that conversation, Mr. Raney 17 told me to stir them up. So I think I am going to do 18 that. 19 Earlier in that conversation, I got to 20 talking and got to know each other a little bit, and 21 I realized that we both have passion for our causes. 22 The only main difference is, I am not paid to be 23 here. 24 I didn't see a dime to be here. I had a 58 1 wonderful offer made to me during that conversation, 2 some may call it a bribe. I was told that we could 3 make a sacred ceremonial on top of one of the 4 mountains that have been exploded. Wouldn't that be 5 wonderful? 6 I have heard condescending remarks in my 7 life, and I have put up with a lot of insults in my 8 life, but that is the topper. A sacred burial ground 9 on top of a devastated exploded mountain. And I was 10 told that this was the idea of another Indian, who he 11 quoted. 12 I know our people aren't perfect, and 13 maybe an Indian did suggest that, but no legitimate, 14 no real medicine person would step foot and do any 15 kind of a ceremony up on a mountain like that. That 16 has been devastated like that. 17 Although, even after the devastation has 18 taken place, understand that it is still sacred. 19 I began my talk with the word, Mataka 20 Asad, (phonetic) words of the Dakota, we begin all 21 our prayers, all of our speaking, with those words. 22 It means, "We are all related." 23 I was brought here to speak to the 24 Native Americans' interest, but the Native American 59 1 interests, are the interests of all people -- of all 2 people. 3 It has always been that way. 4 I swore to that when I became a 5 blackfoot Dakota Warrior, that I would help the 6 oppressed of all people. 7 This isn't just an Indian issue, this 8 is -- we all come from somewhere else. That is why I 9 am here. Because there is a beautiful indigenous 10 heritage in West Virginia, the Shawnee, the Mingo, 11 and the Cherokee, and most of Appalachian people 12 really align with the Cherokee spirit and the 13 Cherokee religion, and the Cherokee way of life. 14 If you do not have that bloodline, it 15 doesn't matter, you can align with it anyway. 16 Because we have always been an inclusive people. 17 The mountaintop removal strikes at the 18 very womb of our sacred Mother Earth. Not at the 19 heart, but the very womb. 20 Generally, the word "prostitution" of 21 the coal companies -- I would use a whole different 22 word, but I guess that is what the correct word is to 23 use -- because mountaintop removal is rape of our 24 sacred Mother Earth. 60 1 In the spirit of Mataka Asad, 2 (phonetic) we are all related. I am not only related 3 to you, and to you, and to you, I am related to our 4 sacred Mother Earth. I am related to things that 5 have nowhere to land in the dead zone. 6 Have you ever heard a hawk screech with 7 nowhere to land, because the ground is so filthy that 8 it would rather fly, than keep moving somewhere 9 else? 10 I saw that at Larry's place. I wrote 11 about that. 12 The buffer zone change will inject 13 poison into the veins of our sacred Mother Earth and 14 should not come to pass. 15 Their proposal of a change in the buffer 16 zone, is nothing less than a direct act of 17 environmental terrorism. Because these people in 18 this room are victims of terror right now. 19 The environmental terrorist is 20 George W. Bush. 21 I see my time is running out, and I just 22 went on for a little bit. 23 I just wanted to thank you all for 24 allowing me to be here. But I assure you that this 61 1 buffer change comes into affect, you have far more to 2 fear from George W. Bush, than we do from Osama bin 3 Ladan. 4 Thank you for your time. 5 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is 6 Janet Fout. 7 The speaker to follow is Arthur Mullins. 8 BY MS. FOUT: 9 I am Janet Fout. I am with the 10 Ohio-Valley Environmental Coalition. 11 I want to thank everyone for the 12 opportunity to testify at this public hearing on the 13 proposed buffer zone rule. 14 I want to use my time to bring the 15 voices of some of our most beloved community into the 16 hearing that could not be here. 17 They are busy this time of year 18 providing food and shelter for themselves, and their 19 offspring, but they really do matter to all of us in 20 this room. 21 They have inspired artists, poets, 22 writers, and musicians for centuries. We hope that 23 they will always share the earth with us. 24 I stand here in their absence in 62 1 representing them, strongly opposed to any change to 2 the current buffer zone rule, and demand for their 3 benefit, that current laws be enforced for a change. 4 This is probably longer than my time 5 will allow, but we will just see how it goes. 6 I haven't heard this. I asked someone 7 to record it for me. 8 (Audio plays.) 9 MR. MORGAN: Excuse me, but what 10 relevance does that have to the stream buffer zone? 11 Could you turn it off, please? 12 MS. FOUT: No. This is the life that is 13 in and around those streams. Those were spring 14 peepers. We have got to memorialize it. It is their 15 voice. 16 MR. MORGAN: Well, I am not going to 17 listen to that for five minutes. 18 MS AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why not? 19 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why not? 20 MR. MORGAN: Turn it off. 21 MS. FOUT: Okay, wait, wait, wait -- 22 MS. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why not? I 23 thought she had five minutes. 24 MR. MORGAN: If you have got comments, 63 1 you are welcome to make those comments. 2 MS. FOUT: Okay. We have plenty of 3 messengers. 4 Listen to this. We can go to the next 5 one. 6 MR. MORGAN: Ma'am, I am going to have 7 to ask you turn that off, please. 8 MS. FOUT: Wait a second. 9 MR. MORGAN: We are not going to listen 10 to that. 11 MS. FOUT: Okay, listen. 12 (Audio plays.) 13 MR. MORGAN: We are not going to listen 14 to that. 15 MS. AUDIENCE MEMBER: She has got five 16 minutes, why can't she say what she wants to? 17 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: She has got five 18 minutes. 19 MR. MORGAN: She can speak and say 20 whatever she wants. 21 (Audience objects.) 22 MS. FOUT: I am speaking for the birds. 23 MR. MORGAN: If I have to, I will 24 have to ask you to leave. 64 1 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Let her talk. 2 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hey, it is her 3 five minutes. 4 MR. MORGAN: No, it is not her five 5 minutes, it is our five minutes. 6 MS. AUDIENCE MEMBER: We all have five 7 minutes. 8 (Audience objects.) 9 MR. MORGAN: Ma'am, will you turn that 10 off? 11 Officer, will you ask her to leave? 12 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: No, she will not 13 turn that off. 14 (Audio stops.) 15 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Let it go. Play 16 it. 17 MS. WINNIE FOX: This is for the birds. 18 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Play it. 19 We don't care about the rules, play it. 20 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: It sounds better 21 than the blasting. 22 (Audience member, Ms. Bonds, at podium.) 23 MS. BONDS: Turn that damn thing on. We 24 have to listen to that coal company dribble, why 65 1 can't we hear this for five minutes? 2 (Audience applauds.) 3 (Audio plays.) 4 MR. MORGAN: We are here to accept 5 comments on a federal rule-making process. 6 (Audio stops.) 7 MR. MORGAN: We are not here to hear 8 animal calls, or bird calls, or anything else. 9 If you have comments, we welcome those 10 comments. 11 MS. BONDS: Shame on you. 12 MR. MORGAN: That is what we are here 13 for. 14 MS. BONDS: You prissy asshole. 15 MR. MORGAN: You do not have the podium. 16 Do you have anything else you would like 17 to say? 18 We have one speaker, please. 19 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: You can't make 20 that kind of decision. 21 (Audience member, Ms. Mary Ellen 22 O'Farrell comes to podium.) 23 MR. MORGAN: I am sorry. You have not 24 been recognized to speak. 66 1 MS. O'FARRELL: I understand. 2 MR. MORGAN: I don't know who you are. 3 You can sit down, until it is time for you to speak. 4 MS. O'FARRELL: The speaker asked me to 5 speak for her. 6 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Do not sit down. 7 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is a police 8 action, she needs to speak. 9 MR. MORGAN: This is not a police 10 action -- 11 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is a police 12 action. 13 MR. MORGAN: -- this is a public 14 hearing -- 15 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: You evoked the 16 police. 17 MR. MORGAN: -- called for a specific 18 purpose, and that is what we are going to do here. 19 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is a police 20 action. 21 MR. MORGAN: If I have to have everyone 22 removed from the room, and have one speaker at a 23 time, that is what we will do. 24 AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is a public 67 1 hearing, let the public speak. 2 MR. MORGAN: The woman has a right to 3 speak. 4 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: You only had five 5 minutes, you are going to waste 10 minutes arguing 6 about it. 7 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Show me in the 8 rules where she cannot do that. 9 MS. AUDIENCE MEMBER: We have got five 10 minutes. 11 MR. MORGAN: Ms. Fout, do you have 12 anything to say? 13 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: She is making her 14 point. 15 MR. MORGAN: No, we will not listen to 16 that. 17 If you have something to say, we will be 18 glad to hear that. 19 MS. AUDIENCE MEMBER: You have wasted so 20 much more time talking about it. 21 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: You violated her 22 First Amendment right. 23 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Absolutely. 24 MR. AUDIENCE MEMBER: You have violated 68 1 her First Amendment right. 2 MS. FOUT: Someone needs to speak for 3 the life that is going to be lost. I am speaking for 4 the life that is going to be lost. 5 (Audience applauds.) 6 MS. FOUT: We will all miss this. We 7 will miss the songs of the birds. We will miss the 8 songs of the frogs. 9 You can't replace that. 10 They have a right to be here. 11 They live by these streams. They depend 12 on these streams like we do. They need a voice in 13 this room. You don't provide that. 14 And I am sorry, the coal companies never 15 count that cost. 16 These are the things that inspire us, 17 that give us hope that life might continue, which 18 allows me to stand up here, at a time like this, when 19 we shouldn't have to stand here to defend the rights 20 of people living in communities, and to defend the 21 rights of these creatures with whom we share the 22 earth. 23 I am appalled, just like Mary Ellen is 24 appalled, that you would not sit here and listen to 69 1 this. 2 I know why you can't listen to this, 3 because this is a truth that you can't escape. 4 This is a truth that you cannot escape. 5 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Arthur 6 Mullins. 7 MR. MULLINS: Thank you. 8 MR. MORGAN: The speaker after that will 9 be Betsy Scott. 10 BY MR. MULLINS: 11 I want to thank you for the opportunity 12 to come here and speak on behalf of the West Virginia 13 Wildlife Confederation, and its Board of Directors, 14 and the National Wildlife Confederation, and its 15 Board of Directors. 16 It upsets me to even come to these types 17 of events, or get involved in these things, but 18 sometimes we do this. 19 We are opposed to any changes in our 20 buffer zones, which would allow degradation of our 21 small streams and headwaters of our little streams, 22 and just as important as the big streams. They 23 produce wildlife habitat and beauty. 24 I just wanted to come here -- I felt the 70 1 obligation to come here and speak on behalf of the 2 Wildlife Confederation because we felt that it was 3 important to try to protect our small streams. 4 Thank you. 5 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Betsy 6 Scott. 7 BY MS. SCOTT: 8 I am here representing myself. My name 9 is Betsy Scott, and I live on Hurricane Creek Road in 10 Winfield, West Virginia. 11 I am very proud to be a West Virginian, 12 and one of the reasons I am proud to be a 13 West Virginian, is because of our mountains and our 14 parks, and our rivers and our streams. 15 I am constantly appalled -- to use that 16 word again -- constantly appalled -- when I have to 17 drive by these mountaintop-removal sites, including 18 utter destruction of these beautiful mountains. 19 One of my favorite things to do is to 20 kayak. I kayak on the Greenbrier, I kayak on the 21 Elk, kayak on the Coal, and I kayak on some other 22 small streams. 23 I love the rivers and streams of West 24 Virginia. I think it is imperative that the 71 1 government enforce current laws, not think about 2 lessoning the enforcement on those kind of laws. 3 It is imperative that our government 4 protect our water quality. Our water quality is so 5 important I don't think many people understand. 6 Think about all of the things that are 7 happening out there with our children today. 8 Think about all of these mysterious 9 illnesses, neurological problems. Where are they 10 coming from? Maybe we don't want, or maybe the coal 11 industry does not want the answer to that question. 12 Water is essential for human life. 13 Water is essential for all life. In fact, there 14 won't be any reason to keep the lights on if there is 15 no life. 16 Ask anyone living in a third-world 17 country -- is that far from here? 18 Ask anyone living in a third-world 19 country how important is clean water is to them, and 20 how it affects their quality of life. 21 Another point that I wanted to make, 22 which other people have made, is that each stream in 23 West Virginia, each little stream, it doesn't exist 24 in a vacuum. It exists as part of a whole organicism 72 1 of streams and water in West Virginia. 2 What you do to one little stream, 3 affects the whole body of water. 4 As I drive through the state, I am 5 constantly amazed that we, the citizens of West 6 Virginia, are allowing the mountaintop removal and 7 destruction that I see. 8 What will cause the end of lawsuits -- 9 somebody before talked about the perpetual stream of 10 lawsuits? What will help the perpetual stream of 11 lawsuits, is to stop mountaintop removal. 12 Another thing referred to earlier is the 13 need to clarify -- and again, someone else mentioned 14 this -- what is there to clarify about 100 feet? 15 I think we all have tape measures, yard 16 sticks and I think 100 feet is pretty clear. 17 West Virginia's long-term economic 18 future is in tourism, is in manufacturing, it is not 19 in coal. Short-term greed. Yes, that is in coal. 20 But our long-term future, our resources for our 21 children, will they be there when the coal is gone? 22 No, they will not be there. 23 I think what we really need to think 24 about is what are our priorities in West Virginia? 73 1 Are they for our children and our grandchildren, or 2 are they for some out-of-state corporation? 3 Finally, what I would like to say is, 4 West Virginia's homeland secure? 5 Thank you. 6 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Frank 7 Young. 8 The speaker to follow is William Kelly. 9 BY MR. YOUNG: 10 Good evening. 11 I have prepared remarks, but I would 12 like to say, for the record, that I strongly object 13 to a uniformed police officer turning off this gal's 14 microphone. 15 (Audience applauds.) 16 My name is Frank Young. I live in 17 Ripley, West Virginia. I am president of the West 18 Virginia Highlands Conservancy. 19 The Conservancy will be making more 20 formal, and more complete comments on the buffer zone 21 rule issue in our written comments yet to be filed. 22 Perhaps no environmental issue has more 23 direct, economic and quality-of-life impact on the 24 people of West Virginia, than that of water quality, 74 1 including maintaining -- as nearly as possible -- the 2 natural integrity of our streams, both of water 3 quantity, and water quality. 4 The Clean Water Act, and other laws have 5 as their goal the preservation and improvement, not 6 further degradation of streams and underground 7 aquifers, the natural conduits and storage basins for 8 the water we must have to survive. 9 Yet now we see the Federal government 10 proclaiming on the one hand, strong environmental 11 protection policies, while on the other hand, gutting 12 the very rules and regulations designed to ensure a 13 good and decent environment for mankind, and all of 14 God's creatures. 15 Mountaintop, mountain range, removal 16 mining, and its associated valley fills, destroyed 17 water storage aquifers, and increased water runoff in 18 rain events, and caused even lower water flow rates 19 during times of little, or no precipitation. Because 20 part of the reserve storage capacity had been 21 depleted. 22 The evening out of wet weather versus 23 dry weather waterflow rates, is significantly 24 disrupted by mountaintop-removal mining, and valley 75 1 fills dump upside-down concoctions of mixtures of 2 various metallic elements industry and headwaters, 3 mixtures which destroy the natural chemical and 4 biological balance of waterways, throughout their 5 length, and within the many aquifers they feed along 6 their course. 7 Too, the political pretentiousness, with 8 which we proclaim the protection of our streams on 9 the one hand, while allowing them to be filled to the 10 brim with mining waste, on the other , is nothing 11 short of laughable. 12 With this operating policy, we protect 13 the streams by destroying them, becomes the effective 14 reality. 15 And the political hypocrisy inherent in 16 being sworn to uphold the laws on the one hand, but 17 arranging to allow subversion of those laws on the 18 other, would be laughable, if not so tragically 19 serious. 20 The West Virginia Highlands Conservancy 21 urges the rejection of any proposal to weaken or 22 delete the buffer zone rule as it applies to mining 23 and putting mining wastes into streams. 24 Thank you. 76 1 MR. MORGAN: To clarify one thing for 2 the record, the police officer only did what I asked 3 him to do. 4 The next speaker is Willard Kelly. 5 The speaker to follow is Michael 6 Morrison. 7 BY MR. KELLY: 8 By the way, I am Willard Kelly, and 9 I live on Island Creek, and I am the closest house to 10 a mountaintop removal that is moving fast down 11 towards my house. 12 I am have 11 grandchildren, and five 13 children. We have lived in the same area, the same 14 spot, for the last 40 years, and we have built two 15 homes on this spot. 16 The creek that runs across my house has 17 a waterfall to it. My children -- which are around 18 40 -- played in it, and now my 11 grandchildren, are 19 playing in the same creek. 20 I buy my water from Wal-Mart, 58 cents a 21 gallon, 365 gallons a year, because I know the water 22 outside -- there is no minnows, there is no crawdads, 23 there is no fish. Everything is dead now. But when 24 we moved there 40 years ago, those ponds were full of 77 1 water. 2 I have pictures right here of my 11 3 grandchildren, have their swing sets, their bicycles, 4 and everything. I own about approximately two 5 acres. I am caught between these two steep 6 mountains, and I have got a little narrow valley 7 375-feet long, and 255-feet wide. 8 So if anybody wants to look at these 9 pictures -- I would love -- I would give $100. 10 I have seen Bill Raney on TV for years. If he would 11 come to my house, I would give him $100 to look at my 12 11 grandchildren for five minutes, and then leave 13 there. 14 I am a UMW miner. I followed 27th. I 15 am the seventh son of seven brothers, a father, a 16 father-in-law, five brother-in-law's, four nephews, I 17 have got them, but we are all UMWA miners. 18 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is 19 Mr. Michael Morrison. The speaker to follow is Larry 20 Gibson. 21 BY MR. MORRISON: 22 Thank you for letting me speak here. I 23 hope it is okay. 24 I am very against this. It is just more 78 1 corporate welfare, money at all cost, jobs at all 2 cost. I am really getting sick of it. 3 I became a Christian last year. I have 4 a calling to put an end to this. I am about lost my 5 life. I had one kidney removed. 6 I have rejected religion, rejected God, 7 but I found out the right answer to life. I have 8 been called to say what is right, for what God has 9 put on this planet and stop all of this inhumane 10 treatment of people. 11 They explained to you. What about the 12 people up there that hear all that blasting and the 13 dust that they have to put with? That is very small 14 with what you are complaining about. 15 The Bible says to tell people to be good 16 stewards of the land and water. They should be 17 experiencing healing, and not sickness. 18 Old King George, you know, 19 Mr. Accountable -- about like the coal industry, you 20 can't believe a word he says. 21 I think that he is the worst president 22 we have ever had. I am telling you. 23 It is sickening to know that we have to 24 be up here, to fight for clean water, for God's 79 1 sakes. Water. We are up here fighting for clean 2 water. That is just crazy. 3 I forgot to tell you, I am a proud 4 member OVAC, very proud. 5 MR. GIBSON: There ya go. 6 BY MR. MORRISON: 7 I am not much of a speaker here, but I 8 do know -- the more and more that I find around the 9 country, they are sensoring people, and I am really 10 fed up with it, too. 11 I hate censorship, and the people who 12 support it. 13 But anyway, I am very against 14 mountaintop removal. It is very devastating. I feel 15 like a big bomb went off up there. 16 If you like it, just go ahead and move 17 up there, if you don't want to hear anything. 18 But I thank you for letting me speak, 19 that's all I am saying. 20 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is 21 Larry Gibson. 22 The speaker to follow is 23 James Chojnacki. 24 80 1 BY MR. GIBSON: 2 I come in here today, and I sit in here 3 and I have listened to you read off all the 4 regulations and rules and everything, and how things 5 were supposed to have been before them, and it kind 6 of got me thinking. It kind of gave me a smack in 7 the face, because you know what? The rules and 8 regulations before it, didn't work. And now you want 9 to put something else in place that don't work? 10 I am sitting here today, I am watching 11 him do something to a young lady here, I liked what 12 she was going to play. That is what I used to hear. 13 I don't hear it no more. 14 We have people right here that is 15 blasting. Why don't you move up to where my place is 16 and look at the blasting, sawing off a mountain, and 17 ruining my cemetery. 18 A buffer zone? They never did know what 19 a buffer zone was. I have had boulders on my 20 property as big as cars. Buffer zone? When did they 21 have one? They haven't had one. 22 Let me tell you something. I come in 23 here today and you said, well, we don't want the 24 court reporter to intimidate you. Let me tell you 81 1 something. I don't think they intimidated today, 2 I think they about damn made us mad, and I am ready 3 to speak up. I am calling for my people to get mad 4 and speak up. 5 Whether you are intimidated or not, that 6 is when you people got me before. You intimidated us 7 for 150 years, we ain't intimidated no more. 8 You people have got to understand, you 9 can only force stuff that is bad down people's throat 10 for so long, and then after a while, it is going to 11 come back up bad. This has just come up real bad, 12 Buddy. 13 What you have been trying to do here 14 today, especially what you tried to do to my friend 15 Janet there -- I was already mad. 16 Of all the things that have been pushed 17 off on us today, that is the best I have heard. That 18 is the best I heard, and you all wanted to turn it 19 off. 20 I want to tell you something, we are 21 upset -- "upset" that is a mild word. We are not 22 upset, we are infuriated, we are mad, right? 23 I am against the buffer zone, if you 24 want to know, if you haven't figured it out. I mean 82 1 golly neds. 2 We, the citizens of West Virginia, we 3 want to take our state back. I don't know why -- you 4 and I spoke the other night. Me and you have met 5 across the table a million times, and have done 6 public hearings like this, and you are always dressed 7 up and looking fine. 8 I want to tell you something, Buddy, the 9 money that you are getting paid to do this job, it 10 ain't enough. One day you will be on our side of the 11 table, and you will say, Boy, I wish I would have 12 listened to the citizens of West Virginia here. 13 I am not directing it to you, I am 14 talking to the microphone. 15 Let me tell you something: Our people 16 in this room, and the people that stood up and spoke 17 for the coal associations -- I am not making 18 reference to anybody -- but we live with 260,000 man 19 jobs, to 30,000 jobs nationwide, and 12,000 jobs in 20 West Virginia. I wouldn't be clapping so hard for 21 anybody like that. 22 If these people are so good, let them 23 think for themselves. You know what I mean? And 24 start trying to think about what we are thinking 83 1 about because it is pretty damn funny when you are 2 going to be on their side of the table, and you are 3 going to say, I wish I could hear a bird, and what 4 she was playing on her machine a while ago. 5 I kind of liked that machine and what 6 they were playing. I didn't like the idea of the 7 cops coming up here, but I like what she was doing. 8 She was trying to tell you, she was trying to give 9 you something that was real. 10 You don't even know what you are doing 11 anymore because you have been doing this job for so 12 long. You don't even know what you are doing. 13 The people here are real. They come 14 here with real concern. That is really what they 15 come here with, real issues of fillers and mines and 16 pain and no one wants to hear it. 17 Well, we are tired of that. We are 18 going to start loading these meetings up every time 19 you have them from now on, and we are going to make 20 sure that you all hear us. 21 Let them know that you are here and let 22 them hear you today. 23 MR. CHOJNACKI: I am Jim Chojnacki from 24 Mud River. 84 1 MR. MORGAN: Let me announce the next 2 speaker. 3 Fred Sampson. 4 BY MR. CHOJNACKI: 5 You have made it muddier. 6 I just have a few words. Like one is 7 Vietnam in Appalachia. 8 You have basically removed the war from 9 Southeast Asia to Appalachia, and put in little 10 villages so that we can be controlled. 11 Another one is organized crime. I had a 12 friend of mine that I graduated from high school with 13 given strip mines for his graduation present. Part 14 of the Bronchodo Family of Cleveland. It is 15 organized crime, folks, overseen by a fascist 16 bureaucrats. Fighting for oil, and having our boys 17 die for oil, and now our children, our frogs, and 18 crickets dying for coal. 19 Yes, I am against buffer zones. It is 20 ridiculous. 21 Thank you. 22 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is 23 Fred Sampson. 24 The speaker to follow is Bill Price. 85 1 BY MR. SAMPSON: 2 I am Fred Sampson. President of the 3 West Virginia Environmental Council. When you ask 4 the people of West Virginia whether or not they are 5 environmentalists, 87 percent will say they are 6 environmentalist. I like to keep clean air and clean 7 water. So I am here representing well over a million 8 people in West Virginia. I want you all to listen. 9 This 100-foot buffer zone has kept the 10 sizes of the mines in West Virginia down. It has not 11 been a good thing, but is the best we have got to 12 help protect the citizens of West Virginia. 13 Coal seems to have been really important 14 in the past, probably one of the most important 15 products here in West Virginia. And the State and 16 Federal regulations seem designed to deny any rights 17 that would have protected citizens from having any 18 rights that would have protected the coal mining 19 communities. They have been devastated and ruined 20 and killed, and now a lot of places are now gone 21 forever. 22 Also, coal mining has left a lot areas 23 with damaged and nonexistent drinking water supplies 24 for its citizens. 86 1 However, we now have a new most 2 important product in West Virginia, and it is called 3 water. Water is more expensive than gasoline and 4 coal, as we all know, and it is going to get more 5 expensive as more damage occurs from coal mining. 6 Water also is a national natural 7 treasure. 8 In protecting national treasures are a 9 part of what our nation does. West Virginians love 10 our mountains, and we draw great comfort from them. 11 We do not see them as a barrier, we see 12 them as protection, for our way of life, and the 13 values that are dear to us. Everytime you blow up 14 one of our state's natural treasures, you have got 15 some unhappy people. 16 Would you be happy if Mount Rushmore was 17 destroyed? Would you be happy if Gettysburg was 18 destroyed? These are national treasures, but not one 19 shred of importance in West Virginia, as our 20 mountains are. 21 These mountains are dear to us. The 22 100-foot buffer zone, the way it is now, limits the 23 size of the mines, all we need is for that to be 24 enforced. It is not being enforced. It has not been 87 1 enforced. If it were, we would not have the 2 mega-sized mountaintop removal going on in our state. 3 I wasn't going to say this, and then I 4 changed my mind, and then I decided that I would say 5 this as another national treasure: Dolly Parton's 6 breasts. Would you be happy if they were destroyed? 7 MR. MORGAN: Bill Price. 8 The speaker to follow is Andy Price. 9 BY MR. BILL PRICE: 10 Mr. Morgan, first of all I would like to 11 thank you. You took some responsibility when you 12 said that you were the one that turned off the 13 microphone on Ms. Fout. 14 From what I heard, it was more 15 responsibility from the Office of Surface Mining in 16 that two minutes, than I have seen in two years. 17 It is time. It is time that the Office 18 of Surface Mining is going to listen to what we have 19 to say. It is time that the Bush Administration is 20 going to quit trying to push these rule changes that 21 benefit the mining industry. 22 If we had a million dollars to give to 23 the campaign, I guess we could get our voices heard, 24 too, but we don't. But we do have the people. 88 1 I have counted 20-some speakers who have 2 gotten up here tonight so far and spoken from here 3 about how this rule change will impact their lives. 4 I have heard two industry lackies, 5 talking about how it is all about jobs, but we want 6 jobs too, Mr. Raney. We want jobs with a future. 7 If this coal mining -- particularly 8 mountaintop-removal mining -- is so good to the coal 9 fields, how come Boone County has such a high 10 unemployment rate? It is the number one coal county 11 in the state. How come? 12 Give us jobs. Give us jobs with a 13 future. 14 I live on the Clear Fork of the Coal 15 River that empties into the Kanawha River, that 16 empties into the Ohio River, that empties into the 17 Mississippi River, that empties into the Gulf of 18 Mexico that joins with the oceans of the world. 19 When you do something to my stream, you 20 do something to the waters of the earth. 21 Mountaintop-removal mining is a crime. 22 It is a crime against the people, it is a crime 23 against the earth and it is economic insanity. 24 I used to sit out on my front porch, and 89 1 I used to listen to the birds, until two-and-a-half 2 years ago there was a flood that came because of 3 mountaintop-removal mining. 4 My wife and I were just sitting up there 5 a couple of days ago, and we were talking about the 6 fact that usually by this time, we can see and hear 7 many birds. Janet, thank you, for bringing that 8 memory back. 9 The other day I was driving down the 10 highway, just lost in thought and going just a little 11 bit too fast. I got pulled over. 12 When the policeman pulled me over and I 13 was thinking about what I was going to say tonight, I 14 was thinking, maybe I should tell him that Oh, sir, I 15 am sorry. I was doing the speed limit to the extent 16 possible. It didn't work for me. I still got a 17 ticket. 18 How are you going to enforce to the 19 extent possible? How are you going to do that? I am 20 just bewildered. I wish somebody would answer that 21 one simple question about how they are going to 22 enforce to the extent possible? 23 I wish somebody would tell me why we 24 need a clarification? 90 1 Thou shalt not mine within 100 feet of a 2 stream. 3 Mr. Morgan, I have lived in 4 West Virginia almost my entire life, and I will live 5 here in West Virginia for the rest of it. 6 I have been through a lot of meetings, I 7 have never seen -- and I hope I would never see in 8 the United States of America what you did tonight to 9 Ms. Fout. 10 This is, I think, still a democracy, and 11 I think you owe Ms. Fout and apology. 12 (Audience applauds.) 13 Mr. Raney, you have the audacity to get 14 up here and talk about homeland security. 15 Let's talk about it -- 16 MS. BRYANT: Time. 17 BY MR. BILL PRICE: 18 Wait a minute. I am just keeping within 19 my time to the extent possible. 20 You have the audacity to get up here and 21 talk about homeland security, I want you guys every 22 one of you whose homeland is being threatened by 23 mountaintop removal, stand up. 24 Stand up. This is Homeland Security, 91 1 Mr. Raney. 2 Thank you. 3 MR. MORGAN: The next speaker is Andy 4 Price. 5 After Mr. Price, we will take a 6 10-minute recess. 7 BY MR. ANDY PRICE: 8 Q. My name is Andy Price. I live on the 9 Clear Fork of the Big Coal River. 10 I came to say that I strongly object to 11 the proposal to change the stream buffer rule. 12 I believe this is only being done to 13 accommodate the coal industry. It allows mining 14 companies to walk away from any responsibility for 15 damage they cause to the streams and rivers that 16 belong to all of us. 17 It is wrong to allow any industry to 18 pollute, damage, and destroy the streams that we all 19 depend on and use in so many ways. 20 Streams, and rivers, and creeks, are 21 very special to people in Appalachia. In fact, our 22 streams and rivers are as much a part of us as the 23 blood that runs through our veins. 24 I am the fifth generation of my family 92 1 to live on the tributary streams of the Clear Fork. 2 I am very proud of that. 3 I have lived on creeks and streams on 4 Coal River all of my life. As a child, I played in 5 and around White Oak Creek where my grandparents 6 lived. That is no longer available to me because of 7 mountaintop-removal mining, and the destruction of 8 streams. 9 My great-great- grandparents are buried 10 on a mountain in the left-hand fork of White Oak 11 Creek, a stream that has already been severely 12 damaged by run off from mountaintop-removal mining. 13 I have fished in the streams near my 14 home for as long as I can remember. I have lived 15 close enough to a creek, that I could sit on the 16 porch on a warm spring evening and listen to the 17 frogs and peepers, the first harolds of springtime. 18 Nearly every night of my life, I have 19 gone to sleep by the gentle sounds of a creek. A 20 sound that reminds me of home. When I was 14-years 21 old, I was baptized in the Clear Fork, according to 22 the tradition of my faith. 23 I know that none of this means anything 24 to the corporations that are only interested in 93 1 mining the coal from the mountains above our river 2 valleys. It may not mean much to the office of 3 surface mining, but these things mean a lot to the 4 people of these mountains. 5 No one has the right to destroy our 6 streams and rivers for profit. This proposed rule 7 change is just one example of the many ways that laws 8 for clean water are being weakened under the Bush 9 Administration. 10 I hope that the Office of Surface Mining 11 will see that there is only one reasonable solution 12 to this serious problem. Keep the stream buffer rule 13 intact, and enforce it as it stands. 14 Thank you. 15 MR. MORGAN: We will take about a 16 10-minute recess until about 5 minutes 'til 8. 17 (Break.) 18 BY MS. PRICE: 19 I don't have a lot to say that these 20 good people haven't already said. 21 My name is Donna Price. I have come to 22 say that I am adamantly opposed to this so-called 23 clarification that will weaken one of the only 24 protections that we have left for our strea